Wow. Another disappearing act. What a surprise.

[Will Rennar]

*flops down, fighting with his new laptop to try and stay online for more
than 20 seconds* Hey guys. Long time no see...again.

...I imagine I'm probably more tired of it than you guys. Anyway, I'd
mention how nice it is to see everyone again, but I've done that a few dozen
times in the past already, so undoubtedly it's gotten old.

So for now, I'll just settle for trying to get my new scanner hooked up, get
a few of the 3 dozen sketches I did while car/comp/etc.hunting out here in
DC scanned, and hope that some of the more tasteless ones make up for my
disappearing after I said it was never gonna happen again. ^^;;

Well, catch you guys later, I guess.

-Ashura

PS Admit it. You missed me.
....yeah, I know I'm full of it. I just wanted to see how you'd react.

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Will Rennar's post...

Post by Will Rennar
....yeah, I know I'm full of it. I just wanted to see how you'd react.

You ain't up to my level yet. Someday

[Arturus Magi]

From: "Pahsons - Somnolent" ***@juno.com
Newsgroups: alt.games.final-fantasy.hentai
Date: 12 Dec 2003 10:11:09 GMT

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
Falling asleep through Will Rennar's post...

Post by Will Rennar
....yeah, I know I'm full of it. I just wanted to see how you'd react.

You ain't up to my level yet. Someday

You mean she's not down to your level. A dead serpent is already above it.
____________________________________
Arturus Magi
69th INF BDE (YAOI), AGFFH Sec.
LTC Commanding
AIM: ArturusMag, NHogue
ICQ: 19106776

Abandon Hope, All Ye Who PRESS ENTER Here

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Arturus Magi's post...

Post by Arturus Magi
Newsgroups: alt.games.final-fantasy.hentai
Date: 12 Dec 2003 10:11:09 GMT

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
Falling asleep through Will Rennar's post...

Post by Will Rennar
....yeah, I know I'm full of it. I just wanted to see how you'd react.

You ain't up to my level yet. Someday

You mean she's not down to your level. A dead serpent is already above it.

I bet you thought that was clever

[Saber]

Post by Arturus Magi
Newsgroups: alt.games.final-fantasy.hentai
Date: 12 Dec 2003 10:11:09 GMT

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
Falling asleep through Will Rennar's post...

Post by Will Rennar
....yeah, I know I'm full of it. I just wanted to see how you'd react.

You ain't up to my level yet. Someday

You mean she's not down to your level. A dead serpent is already above it.

And by "she," you mean "he."

--
sig change

[Arturus Magi]

Newsgroups: alt.games.final-fantasy.hentai
From: Saber s-m-LS-***@saturn.com
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:51:40 -0600

Post by Saber

Post by Arturus Magi
You mean she's not down to your level. A dead serpent is already above it.

And by "she," you mean "he."

In a domain without base physical form like this one, gender is a fluid thing.
If he says she, and he has before, than she he be.
____________________________________
Arturus Magi
69th INF BDE (YAOI), AGFFH Sec.
LTC Commanding
AIM: ArturusMag, NHogue
ICQ: 19106776

Abandon Hope, All Ye Who PRESS ENTER Here

[Araemo]

Post by Arturus Magi
Newsgroups: alt.games.final-fantasy.hentai
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:51:40 -0600

Post by Saber

Post by Arturus Magi
You mean she's not down to your level. A dead serpent is already above it.

And by "she," you mean "he."

In a domain without base physical form like this one, gender is a fluid thing.
If he says she, and he has before, than she he be.

That is probably the most eloquent way I've seen it put. No doubt it'll
be lost on some people however. Oh well, such is life.

-Araemo

[Heretic Ashura]

Post by Araemo

Post by Arturus Magi
In a domain without base physical form like this one, gender is a fluid thing.
If he says she, and he has before, than she he be.

That is probably the most eloquent way I've seen it put. No doubt it'll
be lost on some people however. Oh well, such is life.

*nods, shrugs* C'est la vie.

-Ashura

[Saber]

Post by Arturus Magi
Newsgroups: alt.games.final-fantasy.hentai
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:51:40 -0600

Post by Saber

Post by Arturus Magi
You mean she's not down to your level. A dead serpent is already above it.

And by "she," you mean "he."

In a domain without base physical form like this one, gender is a
fluid thing. If he says she, and he has before, than she he be.

It must suck being so pathetic that you have to pretend to be someone
else just to feel good about yourself.

--
sig change

[Arturus Magi]

Newsgroups: alt.games.final-fantasy.hentai
From: Saber s-m-LS-***@saturn.com
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 02:41:06 -0600

Post by Saber

Post by Arturus Magi
Newsgroups: alt.games.final-fantasy.hentai
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:51:40 -0600

Post by Saber

Post by Arturus Magi
You mean she's not down to your level. A dead serpent is already above it.

And by "she," you mean "he."

In a domain without base physical form like this one, gender is a
fluid thing. If he says she, and he has before, than she he be.

It must suck being so pathetic that you have to pretend to be someone
else just to feel good about yourself.

Gender and physical sex doesn't always coincide.

Just because people can't comprehend the distiction between the two and insist
on basing their concept of both on what's between a person's legs doesn't mean
that everyone this flawed concept doesn't fit is pathetic.

Just there's a disconnect between the sex and gender doesn't mean they're
pretending to be someone they're not.

____________________________________
Arturus Magi
69th INF BDE (YAOI), AGFFH Sec.
LTC Commanding
AIM: ArturusMag, NHogue
ICQ: 19106776

Abandon Hope, All Ye Who PRESS ENTER Here

[Saber]

Post by Arturus Magi
Newsgroups: alt.games.final-fantasy.hentai
Date: Wed, 24 Dec 2003 02:41:06 -0600

Post by Saber

Post by Arturus Magi
Newsgroups: alt.games.final-fantasy.hentai
Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2003 19:51:40 -0600

Post by Saber

Post by Arturus Magi
You mean she's not down to your level. A dead serpent is already above it.

And by "she," you mean "he."

In a domain without base physical form like this one, gender is a
fluid thing. If he says she, and he has before, than she he be.

It must suck being so pathetic that you have to pretend to be someone
else just to feel good about yourself.

Gender and physical sex doesn't always coincide.
Just because people can't comprehend the distiction between the two
and insist on basing their concept of both on what's between a
person's legs doesn't mean that everyone this flawed concept doesn't
fit is pathetic.
Just there's a disconnect between the sex and gender doesn't mean
they're pretending to be someone they're not.

Yeah, it does. Sorry.

--
sig change

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Arturus Magi's post...

Post by Arturus Magi
Gender and physical sex doesn't always coincide.

If you have mental problems, then well yes. What do you think gender is
based on?

[Araemo]

Pahsons - Somnolent wrote:
| Falling asleep through Arturus Magi's post...
|
|
|>Gender and physical sex doesn't always coincide.
|
|
| If you have mental problems, then well yes. What do you think gender is
| based on?
|

By classical definition, "gender" is indeed based on your physical form,
though some psychologists aren't quite so sure thats concrete anymore.

But as mentioned above, you can be anyone you want to be online, and the
more obvious "gender role" you take on is completely independant of your
real-life physical gender. Hell, many people who have no mental
"problems" live very different gender roles in every-day life compared
to their physical gender. Of course, some people would say that in
itself, or wanting to do that, is a "mental problem." I don't agree
with them in every case, and that comes down to personal beliefs,
something thats very hard to get two people to agree on.

~ -Araemo, IHBT

[Heretic Ashura]

"Araemo" <***@rehtoro-s> wrote in message news:MB0Hb.21135$***@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
--sound of a record skritching to a halt--

Meh, no sense arguing with him or Saber. What they've got to say about me or
what anyone says to them is
like water off a duck. Nothing you or anyone else can say is gonna make them
think I'm any less strange, but at the same time, nothing they can say's
gonna change the fact that I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body, so to
speak.

-Ashura

[Araemo]

Heretic Ashura wrote:
| "Araemo" <***@rehtoro-s> wrote in message
| news:MB0Hb.21135$***@fe1.columbus.rr.com...
| --sound of a record skritching to a halt--
|
| Meh, no sense arguing with him or Saber. What they've got to say about
me or
| what anyone says to them is
| like water off a duck. Nothing you or anyone else can say is gonna
make them

Yeah, I know.. hence the "IHBT"..

| think I'm any less strange, but at the same time, nothing they can say's
| gonna change the fact that I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body, so to
| speak.
|
There are much worse things to be.

| -Ashura
|

~ -Araemo

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Araemo's post...

Post by Araemo
Yeah, I know.. hence the "IHBT"..

I'm not trolling.

[Araemo]

Pahsons - Somnolent wrote:
| Falling asleep through Araemo's post...
|
|
|>Yeah, I know.. hence the "IHBT"..
|
|
| I'm not trolling.
|
~ You're right.. sorry I called you a troll.. I had you confused with
saber. :P

~ -Araemo

[Heretic Ashura]

Post by Araemo
~ You're right.. sorry I called you a troll.. I had you confused with
saber. :P

Bada-bing. *snickers*

-A very bored and kinda tired Ashura

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Heretic Ashura's post...

Post by Heretic Ashura

Post by Araemo
~ You're right.. sorry I called you a troll.. I had you confused with
saber. :P

Bada-bing. *snickers*
-A very bored and kinda tired Ashura

You realize that I still have to do whatever Saber says anyway. ;_;

He is my bosth

[Heretic Ashura]

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
You realize that I still have to do whatever Saber says anyway. ;_;

Yeah, I figured that out a while back. Such is your crime, such is your
punishment.

-Ashura

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Heretic Ashura's post...

Post by Heretic Ashura

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
You realize that I still have to do whatever Saber says anyway. ;_;

Yeah, I figured that out a while back. Such is your crime, such is your
punishment.

But there is nothing I did, or can do about it ;_;

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Heretic Ashura's post...

Post by Heretic Ashura
--sound of a record skritching to a halt--
Meh, no sense arguing with him or Saber. What they've got to say about
me or what anyone says to them is
like water off a duck. Nothing you or anyone else can say is gonna
make them think I'm any less strange, but at the same time, nothing
they can say's gonna change the fact that I'm a lesbian trapped in a
man's body, so to speak.

I didn't you're strange before, nor now. Lot's of people need to take
medications.

BTW the only men that don't have lesbians inside of them don't like to eat
pussy.

[Chocodeath]

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
BTW the only men that don't have lesbians inside of them don't like to
eat pussy.

I don't eat my gf out cos it's like licking a cheesergrater...
Her excuse for not getting rid off her hair is that she doesn't want to
look prepubesent[sp?]...
She's a 5'2 pixie as it is...

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Chocodeath's post...

Post by Chocodeath

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
BTW the only men that don't have lesbians inside of them don't like to
eat pussy.

I don't eat my gf out cos it's like licking a cheesergrater...
Her excuse for not getting rid off her hair is that she doesn't want to
look prepubesent[sp?]...
She's a 5'2 pixie as it is...

...

Lame excuse, BE A MAN ABOUT IF

[Heretic Ashura]

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
Lame excuse, BE A MAN ABOUT IF

Smartass remarks on your spelling aside, it's a known fact around the world
that if you don't like the taste of something, you're not gonna eat it,
plain and simple. Hell, that's the same reason I've never gone down on my
girlfriend.

Well, that and she doesn't want me to. *shrugs* Call me a wuss if ya want,
I'll take her respect over yours any day of the week.

-Ashura

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Heretic Ashura's post...

Post by Heretic Ashura

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
Lame excuse, BE A MAN ABOUT IF

Smartass remarks on your spelling aside,

I felt real dumb after reading that ;_;

Post by Heretic Ashura
it's a known fact around the
world that if you don't like the taste of something, you're not gonna
eat it, plain and simple. Hell, that's the same reason I've never gone
down on my girlfriend.

Honestly, there must be something wrong down there then. Nothing tastes
better

Post by Heretic Ashura
Well, that and she doesn't want me to.

She must have not had good oral sex then. I've had GFs like that. They
turned to love it.

Post by Heretic Ashura
*shrugs* Call me a wuss if ya
want, I'll take her respect over yours any day of the week.

You both must have been virgins before you met eachother. That can go
either one of two ways: you two can explore and actually have extraordinary
sex, or you both can do missionary for the rest of your life. Your choice,
but I'd rather you have fun :)

[Heretic Ashura]

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
She must have not had good oral sex then. I've had GFs like that. They
turned to love it.

She's just more of a "traditionalist"...hell, she doesn't even like being on
top for cryin' out loud. *shrugs* The way I figure it, though, she keeps
hangin' around me, that'll change sooner or later.

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
You both must have been virgins before you met eachother.

Still are, actually. (Yes, you read that right.)

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
That can go either one of two ways: you two can explore and actually have

extraordinary

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
sex, or you both can do missionary for the rest of your life. Your choice,
but I'd rather you have fun :)

Meh, she's just a tough nut to crack, that's all. I mean, she spent her
whole life being none too fond of the idea of masturbation, and now every
time we've got some private time together she practically drags my hand down
her shorts.

(not that I'm gonna argue about it..)

-Ashura

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Heretic Ashura's post...

Post by Heretic Ashura

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
She must have not had good oral sex then. I've had GFs like that.
They turned to love it.

She's just more of a "traditionalist"...hell, she doesn't even like
being on top for cryin' out loud. *shrugs* The way I figure it,
though, she keeps hangin' around me, that'll change sooner or later.

Wait a second here...

Post by Heretic Ashura

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
You both must have been virgins before you met eachother.

Still are, actually. (Yes, you read that right.)

Anal sex counts. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to keep a myth
going

Post by Heretic Ashura

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
That can go either one of two ways: you two can explore and actually have

extraordinary

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
sex, or you both can do missionary for the rest of your life. Your

choice,

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
but I'd rather you have fun :)

Meh, she's just a tough nut to crack, that's all. I mean, she spent
her whole life being none too fond of the idea of masturbation, and
now every time we've got some private time together she practically
drags my hand down her shorts.

In other words, her pleasure before yours.

Post by Heretic Ashura
(not that I'm gonna argue about it..)

I'd stop. Then grab her by the ears

[Heretic Ashura]

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
Anal sex counts. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to keep a myth
going

Doesn't change what I said.

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
In other words, her pleasure before yours.

Bingo.

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
I'd stop. Then grab her by the ears

You forgot the part where she'd teach you the meaning of the word "eunuch"
first hand. I hope I didn't give you the impression that I was dating a
wimp.

-Ashura

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Heretic Ashura's post...

Post by Heretic Ashura

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
Anal sex counts. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to keep a
myth going

Doesn't change what I said.

?

Post by Heretic Ashura

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
In other words, her pleasure before yours.

Bingo.

Time to let her knwo the truth

Post by Heretic Ashura

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
I'd stop. Then grab her by the ears

You forgot the part where she'd teach you the meaning of the word
"eunuch" first hand. I hope I didn't give you the impression that I
was dating a wimp.

In other words, she's the man? Got it

[Nick Jones]

Whilst being molested by a Shadowlaw-brainwashed Cammy, Heretic Ashura managed

she doesn't even like being on top for cryin' out loud.

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
You both must have been virgins before you met eachother.

Still are, actually.

Am I the only one who can't possibly fathom how the 'being on top' and
'virgin' things can go together? O_o

-Nick
Just checking.

[Araemo]

Nick Jones wrote:
| Whilst being molested by a Shadowlaw-brainwashed Cammy, Heretic Ashura
managed
| to squeal:
|
|
|>she doesn't even like being on top for cryin' out loud.
|
|
|>>You both must have been virgins before you met eachother.
|>
|>Still are, actually.
|
|
| Am I the only one who can't possibly fathom how the 'being on top' and
| 'virgin' things can go together? O_o
|
| -Nick
| Just checking.

Well, 'being on top' could have a different meaning than you're
thinking... But yeah, thats curious.

~ -Araemo

Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought her back.

[Chocodeath]

Post by Nick Jones
Am I the only one who can't possibly fathom how the 'being on top' and
'virgin' things can go together? O_o
-Nick
Just checking.

With Bunkbeds...

[Chocodeath]

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
Falling asleep through Chocodeath's post...

Post by Chocodeath

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
BTW the only men that don't have lesbians inside of them don't like to
eat pussy.

I don't eat my gf out cos it's like licking a cheesergrater...
Her excuse for not getting rid off her hair is that she doesn't want to
look prepubesent[sp?]...
She's a 5'2 pixie as it is...

...
Lame excuse, BE A MAN ABOUT IF

No...
I value my tastebuds more than her pleasure...
That's ironic considering how much I smoke...

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Araemo's post...

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
| Falling asleep through Arturus Magi's post...
|
|
|>Gender and physical sex doesn't always coincide.
|
|
| If you have mental problems, then well yes. What do you think gender is
| based on?
|
By classical definition, "gender" is indeed based on your physical form,
though some psychologists aren't quite so sure thats concrete anymore.
But as mentioned above, you can be anyone you want to be online, and the
more obvious "gender role" you take on is completely independant of your
real-life physical gender. Hell, many people who have no mental
"problems" live very different gender roles in every-day life compared
to their physical gender. Of course, some people would say that in
itself, or wanting to do that, is a "mental problem." I don't agree
with them in every case, and that comes down to personal beliefs,
something thats very hard to get two people to agree on.

It's called a chemical imbalance

[Nick Jones]

Whilst being molested by a Shadowlaw-brainwashed Cammy, Pahsons - Somnolent

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
It's called a chemical imbalance

Actually no, gender (and gender dysphoria) is hard-wired into the brain very
early on in pregnancy, it's not like depression or mental illness which *are*
caused by chemical imbalances and can be treated.

-Nick

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Nick Jones's post...

Post by Nick Jones

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
It's called a chemical imbalance

Actually no, gender (and gender dysphoria) is hard-wired into the brain very
early on in pregnancy, it's not like depression or mental illness
which *are* caused by chemical imbalances and can be treated.

...

I didn't know that we have mapped the human brain. Any links?

[John C. Watson]

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
Falling asleep through Nick Jones's post...

Post by Nick Jones

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
It's called a chemical imbalance

Actually no, gender (and gender dysphoria) is hard-wired into the brain very
early on in pregnancy, it's not like depression or mental illness
which *are* caused by chemical imbalances and can be treated.

...
I didn't know that we have mapped the human brain. Any links?

I haven't perused all of this, but it may be helpful:

NOVA Online | Sex: Unknown

<http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gender/>

--
Ciao,
John

John C. Watson
World Otakunization Project, Amherst Division

Please note the change of my E-mail address.

[Nick Jones]

Whilst being molested by a Shadowlaw-brainwashed Cammy, Pahsons - Somnolent

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
I didn't know that we have mapped the human brain. Any links?

Not to where I originally got the information, which was from a TV show I saw
a while ago. But drudging up a link shouldn't be too hard...

A quick web search yielded:

http://transsexual.org/What.html

...and a bunch of other pages that say pretty much the same thing. Hormonal
swings caused by stress in the mother affect the fetus' brain, causing it to
develop as a gender that doesn't match it's physical sex.

-Nick
Mr. Science once again.
Haven't worn that particular hat since the weekly school broadcast in the sixth
grade...

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Nick Jones's post...

Post by Nick Jones
...and a bunch of other pages that say pretty much the same thing. Hormonal
swings caused by stress in the mother affect the fetus' brain, causing
it to develop as a gender that doesn't match it's physical sex.

So it's a total chemical imbalance cause at birth, with no way to correct
it, cirving said person insane.

I'll never mock those people agian. I'm sorry, that must suck.

[Heretic Ashura]

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
So it's a total chemical imbalance cause at birth, with no way to correct
it, cirving said person insane.

...Okay, now I just *have* to point out hte seplling errur. (And yes, I'm
being a smartass about it to boot.) I'm assuming that "cirving" was meant to
be "driving"..in which case I just have to wonder what you're talking about.
The fact that my brain (along with, apparently, the rest of the world) is
telling me I'm a female while my Hanes are telling me otherwise isn't what
drove me insane. That's my family's fault.

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
I'll never mock those people agian. I'm sorry, that must suck.

Actually it's not that bad. I'll save worrying about it for the day I go
shopping for tampons.

-Ashura

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Heretic Ashura's post...

Post by Heretic Ashura

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
So it's a total chemical imbalance cause at birth, with no way to
correct it, cirving said person insane.

...Okay, now I just *have* to point out hte seplling errur. (And yes,
I'm being a smartass about it to boot.) I'm assuming that "cirving"
was meant to be "driving"..in which case I just have to wonder what
you're talking about.

The monitor I read NGs on is more than arms length away, sitting at head
level, is 6 years old, and small. ci still looks like a d. I must need
new glasses, and I'm not far sighted either ;_;

I don't even know how I typed that

Post by Heretic Ashura
The fact that my brain (along with, apparently,
the rest of the world) is telling me I'm a female while my Hanes are
telling me otherwise isn't what drove me insane. That's my family's
fault.

Kill them?

Post by Heretic Ashura

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent
I'll never mock those people agian. I'm sorry, that must suck.

Actually it's not that bad. I'll save worrying about it for the day I
go shopping for tampons.

;_;

[Heretic Ashura]

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent

Post by Heretic Ashura
The fact that my brain (along with, apparently,
the rest of the world) is telling me I'm a female while my Hanes are
telling me otherwise isn't what drove me insane. That's my family's
fault.

Kill them?

Right now the travel expenses alone make that a bit cost-prohibitive. I'm
not interested in going from here to Iowa to Alaska and back, thank you.

-A slightly broke Ashura

[Pahsons - Somnolent]

Falling asleep through Heretic Ashura's post...

Post by Heretic Ashura

Post by Pahsons - Somnolent

Post by Heretic Ashura
The fact that my brain (along with, apparently,
the rest of the world) is telling me I'm a female while my Hanes are
telling me otherwise isn't what drove me insane. That's my family's
fault.

Kill them?

Right now the travel expenses alone make that a bit cost-prohibitive. I'm
not interested in going from here to Iowa to Alaska and back, thank you.

A really naster letter?

[Heretic Ashura]

Post by Saber
It must suck being so pathetic that you have to pretend to be someone
else just to feel good about yourself.

*smirks* Once again your rapier wit stabs like a sponge. Just the thing I
needed to perk up the night.

Happy Holidays, Saber.

-Ashura

[Heretic Ashura]

"Will Rennar" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:5mbCb.13005$***@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...

*makes a quick note that "Will Rennar" is her more commonly known online
handle...why it showed up here is anyone's guess.*